REZA: The DarkTopo Interview

© 2008, National Geographic.

At its core, photography is a way of bearing witness, of capturing truth. Some truths are simple: A tree in the moonlight, pears on the windowsill, whales in shallow water. Some truths are harder to look at. And some truths are levers that can move mountains.

The exiled photographer Reza deals with truths he finds at the jagged border between war and peace, the place where humanity's contrast is highest. Tortured, wounded, and marked for death by totalitarian governments, Reza has borne witness to the most gruesome of human behavior.

Reza's new book, War + Peace, is a retrospective that shows, gently and irrefutably, the importance of bearing witness to the conflicts of man. It gives us an understanding of the absolute necessity of a free press: From portraits of Afghan fighters to vast, disturbing landscapes; from stark visions of dictators to quiet renderings of the impoverished and hungry--this book whispers stories that would otherwise be untold.

And the truth that Reza finds in telling these stories is that there is more to conflict than death, blood, and sorrow. What we see in his pictures is the affirmation of human spirit. And as a part of that affirmation, Reza is moving on, training new witnesses.

I had the opportunity to speak with Reza about the new book, objectivity, and Aïna, a humanitarian association that he has founded to promote "independent media development and cultural expression as a foundation of democracy." What follows is the text of our interview.

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REZA: Good morning, Max, this is Reza.

MC: Good morning, Reza, how are you?

REZA: Good, thank you.

MC: I’m honored to speak with you, and I appreciate the opportunity.

REZA: Thank you.

MC: Tell me about your new book.

REZA: The new book, have you seen it?

MC: I’ve got it right here in front of me.

REZA: Well, this was a project that was going on for a couple of years with National Geographic’s book division. Leah Bendavid-Val, she’s the director of photography, and the photo books, and she was—we were talking for many years about doing a book on my work, and what title, what angle, what subject? So finally, the whole concept of this book was, it should be what I have been photographing all over the world, and being the most opportunistic photojournalist in the world. [Laughs] The wars, and all the conflict, and the human disaster, and I see more—after watching it all—[I came to believe] it would be better. I came up with the concept of war and peace, or war plus peace, because well, I hope, one day humans will be civilized enough to not possess violence, and the buildings of, the manufacturing of guns and missiles and tanks and bombs. Instead of this, we will make books, and food for people that they need.

MC: Right. Well, let me ask you this: You’ve been doing this a long time, and I’ve got the book here, and it’s gorgeous. There’s so much in it, so much to look at and so much to read. Have we made progress in the time that you’ve been photographing?

REZA: Oh yes, of course.

MC: The world is a more peaceful place today?

REZA: I’m more looking at a longer period of history, and how we can make progress. I really believe that the humanity today is—it’s not in just one human [lifetime]. Humanity for me is in its fourth or third day of [living], a baby just coming out of the hospital. We have a long way to be educated, we have a long way to go on, we have a long way to study and understand the world . . .


China | 1999| "If we are to teach real peace in this world, and if ware to carry on a real war against war, we shall have to begin with the children."-Mohandas Ghandi. Photo by Reza, © 2008, National Geographic.

MC: In looking through [the book], a couple of images stand out to me. One is the picture of the boy destroying the portrait of Touré on the wall, scratching it out, and that to me kind of spoke volumes about the power of an image in propagating liberty and the freedom of people. Can you see ways in which you have personally been instrumental—in the book, you talk about how that image kind of spread like wildfire. Are there other images, are there other ways you have seen your work make progress?

REZA: I too believe that, especially in the 21st century, it’s going to be a century with a lot of things, a lot of opportunity for the images—the image is going to be, probably, one of the main factors of the change in the world. You know, I have an opportunity, and I’m working on it for the 21st century, for education, which is different from traditional education, it’s informal education, which is going to replace, or complete, maybe, the lack of the traditional education in the whole world.

"The image is going to be . . . one of the main factors of change in the world."

So the image is going to play an important role, and I have seen a lot, well, maybe not a lot, but people who were . . . impressed by my pictures, but not only impressed. To impress people is one thing, but the most important thing for me is, after the emotion that they’ve got, the emotion in the brain . . . it [brings] the people to react. And that is what I’m looking at and working with, with photography, this emotion is [bringing people] to action.


Afghanistan | 1985 | "Ahmad Shah Massoud loved his people, and his people loved him. He was a great listener, remembering every detail, every name, every request." -Reza. Photo by Reza, © 2008, National Geographic.

MC: In that vein, talking about a reaction, you talk about the day in 1978 when you saw the students fired upon by the Iranian soldiers, and how that was the moment when you kind of gave everything up and picked up your camera. In that action, and in that reaction, did you have any doubt about what the future would hold for you?

REZA: For me, personally?

MC: As a flash-point to start your career, did you have a clue?

REZA: I had no clue what was going to happen, because at this time in the world, I didn’t even know what [were] the possible jobs in photography. The almost only job I knew was making portraits, or some newspapers or magazines, which, at the time, it was not the kind of thing that was very interesting for me. For me, I didn’t know why, but I knew that I had to—somehow, we had to photograph it. We had to take pictures of it.

MC: Did you—you say that in a few months your photos were picked up by the international press. In those months, did you have doubts? Did you wonder if you’d done the right thing?

REZA: No, because I—it was so strong, so strong, it was so important, those days and weeks of the change happening. That, first of all, every day, being alive was a gift. There was shooting everywhere, and this was the first thing: being alive. It was so much going on that you didn’t even have time to think about it. It was demonstrations everywhere, everybody’s shooting, people running, and it was really, really, very tough days.


Pakistan | 1986 | Jubilant supporters throw rose petals at Benazir Bhutto during her election campaign. Photo by Reza, © 2008, National Geographic.

MC: Looking back on it now, are you glad you took that leap of faith? I assume that your photograph has cost you a lot, you talk about going into exile, and all the wounds you’ve sustained. Would you do it all over again?

REZA: If I don’t find another way to do better, I would do it again, of course. Yes. No doubt about it. Because, one of the things I learned, that we really don’t know, and I believe nobody has done such a study: How the picture really changes a society. We don’t know. We know that a photo is important; we know that photos bring a lot of action and reaction, but what has been in the past 20 years—if it wasn’t for pictures, what would be the history of the humanity today? Nobody knows. But the people that have worked deep on photography, photographers, or picture editors, anybody that was involved in photography, like you, now you are involving—We know that it’s important and we’re doing something but we don’t know how big it is. And I think it’s very big. My feeling is that this is very, very big, but we don’t know, really.

"First of all, every day, being alive was a gift. There was shooting everywhere, and this was the first thing: being alive."

MC: In the introduction, [you talk about] how a thousand journalists will strengthen a democracy or weaken a tyranny. You’ve had your work picked up by the international press, National Geographic, all sorts of magazines. What can someone who is not established, and not a part of an institution—what can an individual journalist do, can an individual journalist have an impact?

REZA: Absolutely. The impact, especially now, more from the individual journalist will come. The old media, somehow, are going to give away to a new type of media. Obviously, the Internet is going to play a very important role. I believe that the real democracy that you’re always talking about, everybody has a possibility to give his voice. This is what is coming up. So that’s what—I believe that, more and more, individuals are important. That’s why I’m putting all my energy in training people, not only in Afghanistan, but giving conferences, and materials, and talking to students in the world, because these are the ones that are going to change the world. Not CNN, not ABC news, or FOX, or whatever it’s called. The future is people like you, people that hold blogs, that became in their own way, using the internet—look at how Obama used the internet to be elected.

MC: And, you know, I tell my [photography] students . . . this is your will that is being expressed here, this is a basic human right, and to take that very seriously.

REZA: Yes.

MC: So I’d certainly agree with you. The flipside of that coin is that we trust the mainstream media, the big media outlets, to be objective. Whether or not they actually are is a matter of some debate, but is it possible for an individual to be objective? Have you been objective? You talk about the time you spent in Afghanistan. How high a priority is objectivity to you?

REZA: Ah, I think that the objectivity of the media is probably one of the biggest lies for the last century or so. It has become like a religion. The people say, “oh, the media is objective,” and the journalist says “I’m objective.” I . . . I’m . . . this is nonsense. Look at when the . . . even if you send a robot. Imagine five robots with a camera, [sent] to photograph something. They will choose different directions. They will use different angles . . . and I do remember when the US attacked Iraq, the second war, I was somehow astonished at the story. I spent the whole day in my hotel, I was so upset . . . And being near the border, and being in a nice hotel, I started flipping through all the [media outlets] in the world. And I was looking at three or four totally different wars. Totally different wars. I could not believe it. Even the pace was not the same. So who’s talking about objectivity?

MC: As a student of photography history, I look at people like Eugene Smith, and you know, he wrote in his notebook, “Subjectivity is not a crime.” At some point, there has to be a value system somewhere.

"The objectivity of the media is probably one of the biggest lies... It has become like a religion."

REZA: You know, even if you and me, we go together, in front of a food center, we would pick up different foods. Depends on our education, depends on how hungry we are, what foods we have learned to—what colors [we like]. Everything is related. The human is the real filter. Each of us, we have to—the layers and layers and layers of the filters of the, ah, different education and sensational upbringings that make us to choose an angle which is different from the other, to go to one story more than another story.

Normally, you know, where there was fighting between two groups, and you wanted to—you’d love to photograph them both, but somehow 90% of you knows you’re for one of them, but to get the permission to go see the others, this is the lies that the journalist says, “oh, I’m objective, I want to see both sides, I want to see how it’s going on that one.” This is just to get—That’s just what we do. Which is absolutely necessary, to see both sides. But I haven’t seen, really, journalists or photographers that, even in a story which they have no clue about, or they don’t know about, say that I’m totally objective and I’m going to look to both sides absolutely with no filter . . .

MC: Well, let me switch gears for a second. Tell me about the cover shot of the book. What is that? It’s a face, but can you tell me a little bit about that photograph in particular?

REZA: [Laughs] Ah, actually . . . at the time that I started, four or five years ago, [with] my first digital camera, and I was playing with digital cameras to find out, ah, what is in it and how it’s working, and how I can . . . and I got this picture, which was not, somehow, part of my photography work that I was going to put, you know, but these are the new . . . It is actually one of the first photographs . . . When I started using the digital, which, still I haven’t . . . most of the shots I take are on films, for the magazine, for Geographic. But in the meantime, I find a lot of difference, a different way of photographing, a different picture that you can get, using than the digital, rather than the film. This is one of them, one of the very, very first pictures I used a digital camera . . . I believe it was a small, six million pixels, one of those point and shoot cameras.

MC: Well, it’s an incredibly evocative image. When I picked up the book, I was thinking, “I’m going to open these pages and see a lot of blood and guts.” And looking through it, there’s a little bit of that, but there’s also a lot of portraits, a lot of really nice, quiet portraits, and a lot of scenes that have positive feelings. And that was something that I wasn’t expecting, and when I closed the book for the first time after reading it, I looked at the cover, and it took on a whole new meaning. And I think it’s an excellent choice for the cover.

REZA: And in a way, this is also the way in which I’m working on the film, and this is what [is different about] my work. And I mean, you know . . . the best way that I can explain it is that when I’m—when there’s an explosion, when there’s fifteen, twenty, ten photographers running toward the explosion, and what I see, it’s almost as if everybody goes and looks for dead bodies. And I’m probably the only one, and you can see in my book, that turns back, and I look for the eyes of the survivors. And I photograph the eyes of the survivors, more than just the bodies lying. And this makes the whole concept of my work, that’s why I call it war plus peace, because that’s why many times I see photographers, they go to morgues and stay the whole day and night in a morgue, and they see—or in the hospital, so it’s obvious that you can get incredible pictures of people dying, and bodies, and all those things, which for me is not the way to communicate with people. For me, you can communicate, and bring people to love Afghanistan, to love Africa, not only showing the blood, and blood, and blood, but also showing the beauty that is in their culture, in their eyes. If you don’t like something, you will never defend it. If you don’t like something, you will never have an idea for helping it, if you find it’s in a difficult situation. No? So my work is to bring people to like those countries, those people, and then look and say, “Oh, this guy has a problem, maybe I can help.”


Sudan | 1989 | "I saw his feet, scarred by chains that also bound his hands. His eyes were resigned, his voilence contained." -Reza. Photo by Reza, © 2008, National Geographic.

MC: And I think that you do that very well. Looking at the book, you certainly connect with the people in the photographs, and the places. You run the gamut, from tight head-shot portraits, all the way up to landscape, and in every photograph there’s human connectivity, you know, you connect with what’s going on there. It’s expertly done. Some of the photos of Rachel in France, in the field of poppies. As a photographer, I look at a book like this for the subject matter, but also to see how the photographer has lived. How does your family stand it? How can they stand for you to have this job?

REZA: Well, first of all, Rachel is a writer, and she’s the one . . . she talks to me, and when I’m coming back and telling the stories, and she looks at each picture, she takes hours and days watching the photographs, and thinking about it, and she writes . . . beautiful text. Especially, even in French, it’s really beautiful, everything she’s writing is so . . . and all the French people, they love her writings. And so, being connected for so long, because this is the first thing, the connection with people, with your family, is in the mind first. And then, these two kids that we have, they were brought up in the same way, from the first day, we helped them to understand the variety of the culture. You know, “this is what’s important.” And we’re happy to know that really, they have come through this. They are fifteen and eleven years. But they have this variety of humanity in their thoughts. That’s what has helped me to be absent for eight, nine months a year.

"When there’s photographers running toward the explosion, and it’s almost as if everybody goes and looks for dead bodies. And I’m probably the only one that turns back, and I look for the eyes of the survivors."

MC: Is that all at one time?

REZA: No, no, it’s on and off . . .

MC: And the follow up to that is, why do you do it? Where do you get your bravery? How can you run toward the explosion?

REZA: Hmm. Well, ah, it’s, ah . . . It’s quite complicated. The way that it helped me, first of all, personally, I need to polish my soul. Otherwise, if you’re too much in contact with the blood and the destruction, you don’t care about—you would burn out. It’s a psychological term, to burn out. Unfortunately, I’ve seen many friends burn out. When you see them, you talk to them, you don’t have the impression that they are burned out, but being close to them, I know that they are. Poetry has helped me. Reading poetry. Especially the Persian poet Rumi, he’s one of my favorites. He’s one that really helped me a lot. But also any kind of poetry, in any language. I love it. [Laughs] It’s also the inspiration of my photographs.

MC: I thought the juxtaposition of Rumi’s work with your own was excellent. It was a great touch. When you’re not on assignment, do you shoot photos? Do you enjoy photography in and of itself, or is it just a tool for documentation for you?

REZA: Ah, you know what? To tell you the truth, you may never find a day in my archives which there’s no pictures of.

MC: So you’ve always got the camera?

REZA: Always have the camera. The only time I didn’t have a camera, from the first day I started when I was fourteen years old, till now, it was three years which I was in prison. Beside this I always have my camera, always take pictures, in the airplane, in the airport, checking in and checking out. [Laughs] And riding to the restaurant, and seeing friends, always, always, this is how I live. This is how I think. I don’t believe in the photographers who say, “My cameras, I only take when I’m on assignment.” It’s a job, but for me, photography’s not a job, it’s a way of life. It’s like breathing. It’s like, you know, if you don’t breathe, you die. And that’s what I do. I breathe with my camera, always . . .

MC: What kind of photos do you have on your refrigerator?

REZA: You mean, like films in my refrigerator?

MC: No, no, like, stuck to your refrigerator, the outside, with magnets.

REZA: Oh, I see. Ah, it’s more paintings. More paintings, or pictures that were taken by my kids. Not my photographs.

"I breathe with my camera, always..."

MC: Finally, I saw your work in the Geographic a few months ago about Pakistan being a hot-spot for the two sides of Islam, and now we’ve seen this week, in the last week, the thing in Mumbai now being linked to Pakistan. Are you going back? What’s next?

REZA: Ah, actually, I’m more concentrating on Aïna, the foundation which I have in Afghanistan, and training the journalists, and training Afghans, because it’s becoming more and more obvious that we have lost the war. And, so, in a way what I was doing from 2001, starting Aïna . . . my main work, my concentration is on Aïna, helping Afghans to become their own journalists, and make the films and magazines for the children, radio . . . and I believe that’s what we need, that’s what we have to help them do.

MC: Well, Reza, thank you very much.

REZA: My pleasure.

MC: I appreciate the interview, and I appreciate all the work you’ve done.

REZA: My pleasure, my pleasure. I’d appreciate if you can make a little research on Aïna. . . because I think it’s important for the people to understand that all this work, and all this connection with people which I have in the world, it was not for me, it was not just for personal whatever, it is this that I’m giving back to them that’s important.